Location: UNITED KINGDOM Points: 206 |
Posted On: 2014-10-26 06:48:46
Should Taxes be raised as a way to eradicate poverty?
is there a way of eradicating World poverty via higher Taxes?
If yes, should we raise Taxes on the Rich only or on all?
I keep on seeing these Adverts asking for people to donate money to reduce Poverty and it has been going on forever!
Taxes do not prime much of anything. They represent the failure of society as a whole to seek the life ideal on earth. In our economic day, it would be better to find ways to do this better in a fair marketplace where doing unto others as you would have them do to you. This is a much more practical solution. However, if we must tax for the sake of our failure to do this, we offer the best way to do it. See http://tapsearch.com/realtaxreform It's about taps instead of taxes.
WOW! Nothing could be further from reality that the tirade you have written.
After look at the countries that have MUCH HIGHER Taxes than US, such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, etc. they have much better economies and societies than US, from much higher college graduation rates, to much lower crime rates, to ZERO person in their countries going bankrupt due to Healthcare costs because they all have Government run Universal Socialized Healthcare, etc. plus vs failures in USA.
While that could help, in the USofCorporate 'merica its not possible because the decisions are not made based on what is good for the people nor for the good of small businesses. Decisions are made based on what is good for large corporations. So it is a pipe dream to think that this simple solutions would work. Whats needed is a whole new economic system that is tailored for small business, working people, and poor people. This system will have to bypass the current status quo of large corporate 'merica because even poor people have been convinced that whats good for large corporations is good for 'merica. Problem is these corporations are destroying everything even countries that have enough natural resources to help their own poor cannot because of large corporations.
Savoirfaire, I am afraid you are totally right. This is because USA is truly under attack by a TRUE Enemy within, resulting in Republican lunatics and FRAUD Obama Democrats, resulting in nothing being done for American People but our Money and Lives wasted on one War after another War after another War for Israel. All of which comes from the FACT that USA is not a Democracy at all.
For Mathematical proof of above read:
Every thing that we wrote here in response to this question were further proven by US elections we just had. That is (2014) US elections are reminder that US elections are a FARCE. They are a FIXED SCAM. And this can be mathematically proven! Via the State of Health Care in USA.
that is in which Country on Earth that is a Democracy do you have Parties running for election that are not 100% for their Government run Universal Socialized Health care (NHS)?
Since in any Democracy if you are not 100% for, set aside be against, something as essential for the well being of the Nation as Universal Socialized Health care, then you will naturally be destroyed by the People of that Nation. And that is why 100% of all Conservative parties, repeat all Conservative parties, in Europe, Canada, Australia, including Israel the BELOVED Nation of TEAPublican lunatics & Fraud Obama Democrats, are 100% for their NHS.
The above mathematical facts means that if US was a real Democracy like Europeans, Canada, Australia, etc. then ZERO members of Senate or House would be Republicans, set aside that they have taken Majority now! And Obama Democrats would be on their last leg too.
Poverty is the result of bad choices. The only way out of poverty is to make different choices. All of the money in the world will never eradicate poverty.
For example, if one took ALL the money in the world from the rich and gave it to the poor, within one generation the rich would have regained all of that money and the poor would still be poor.
Over 90% of millionaire lottery winners are worse off in five years than when they won the lottery. Almost 100% of the poor who win lotteries are even poorer in 5 years than when they won the lottery.
Bad choices = Poverty. The only way out is to make better choices. Will that be easy? Never!!! No matter how poor one is now, and no matter where in the world one lives, ONLY that person can make the choices necessary to rise out of the poverty pit. NO ONE ELSE and NO GOVERNMENT can do it for him!!!
Spoken like an American who has been brain washed for Decades by lies and lies of the right-wing Media.
How can the problem be making the right choices alone, when a simple Health Care issue can Bankrupt and KILL 10s of Millions of American with NO Health Care, while the same will cost a European, Canadian, Australian, Israeli, etc. ZERO since all these Nations as 100% of all developed countries in the World have Government run Universal Socialized health care
Or how can an American make the right choice and go to College to get educated and that College education will cost then an INSANE $100,000 and much more, thus saddling them with crushing Debt for Years to come when the same College education will cost a German, Dane, Norwegian, etc. European FREE or almost FREE because in all these Countries Government pays for College education, since they realize that just like Health Care it is one of the KEY Steps in Helping the People to lift
themselves up to higher Class of life. And of course that someone who becomes Richer as a result of their FREE College education will then pay Much Higher Taxes over their life time.
So Government does not end Poverty, but essential Government provided Social services such as FREE Health Care and FREE College education, are KEY Steps in helping People to do the right thing and have a more prosperous Nation as a result.
And in case you say the Republican lunatic crazy talk, that
"nothing is FREE".
It is FREE for the Taxes that they pay.
So just as we Americans pay Taxes and get nothing for our Taxes but one War after another War after another War, for Israel,
German, Dane, Norwegian, etc. Europeans get FREE Health Care and College education for their Taxes as a result of which they are much Richer and getting Much Richer than Americans, and are thus much Happier too than Miserable American People.
Nonsense and more utter nonsense. Europeans do NOT get FREE health care coverage - They pay for it via insanely high taxes that the bureaucrats skim into their own pockets before any is paid out for health care for those who paid the taxes. And any cursory examination of any socialized health system will show inane numbers of people denied care or forced to wait for care insane amounts of time.
Nuff said. Governments cannot replace nor force personal responsibility.
mmerlinn, you are perfect example of what brain dead lunatics Republicans in US are, thanks to lies upon lies that has been thrown at you by the Wall Street owned rightwing Media, and the HELL with American People.
I feel sorry for Thinkdeep trying to talk sense into you.
So as he already said:
"Europeans, Canadians, Israelis, etc. get FREEHealth Care for Taxes that they pa, just as we Americans pay Taxes but get nothing for our Taxes but one War after another War after"
First, I am not a Republican, nor ever will be one. The RepubliCONs are just as bad as the DemocRATs. They are the major parties that feed bullshit to all of us. There not one single political party in the U.S. that is not at the beck and call of greedy people whether those people are at the top of the ladder or at the bottom.
A politician is a politician because he is NOT capable of doing anything else EXCEPT being a lying crook. ALL politicians are liars and thieves!
Answer is exactly as Thinkdeep has given you.
That is here in Norway where I live People are very happy to pay some of the Highest Taxes in Europe on the Rich and for which Taxes we have some of the most generous Social Welfare state services and could not be more happy as a result. And therefore we have some of the lowest Unemployment rates while having some of the Highest Minimum wages too.
How much of Norwegian government spending is subsidized by state owned oil revenues?
I gather that middle eastern states are also very generous to their populations ... maybe more than Norway, no?
What taxation as the solution fails to recognize is the need for people to produce. If you're not sitting on oil, then through labor force - infrastructure and education are the key - not trying to stick it to producers .. look at the direction of France, poster child for tax the rich.
1st, Denmark, Sweden, etc. have the same Taxes and Welfare State as Norway and Denmark have NO Oil.
2nd, if Norway was USA then all our Tax revenues would be taken (aka Stolen) by a Giant Oil company like Exxon rather than invested for benefit of the People, which fact by the way US Media has called "Socialism" and other rubbish.
3rd, to compare Norway to a Middle Eastern country is the height of stupidity and declares you void of any intelligence.
And as final Stupid you state:
"What taxation as the solution fails to recognize is the need for people to produce."
We the People produce pay Taxes so that we can have Government services than an individual on his/her own could never do as well, such as build Dams, have police force, provide Universal health care, provide Universal education, etc.
You do know that US Military that you love so much is 100% Tax payer supported service just like our Universal health care!
Thank you TD. I am starting to see your points exactly. That is the more I become aware of what is going on inside USA the more I see that something really sick and evil has taken hold of US body Politics and Economy. Resulting in certain American People to find Taxes to support one War after another War after another War that US is engaged in to be OK but Taxes to support necessary Social services to be "Punishing success" and other crazy talk!
Eradicating world poverty. Is that a realistic goal? Your questions are much more philosophical in nature than pragmatic and touch on issues such as peoples responsibilities for others versus their own. So far, opinions have been provided as answers, and some are masqueraded as "factual".
Here are a couple of points I hold dear:
The concept of TAKING from one to give to another is morally bankrupt.
Systematic "welfare" support, while having some successes, has proven to be overwhelmingly a failure - examples abound.
Infrastructure and education development are paramount to ENABLING AND EMPOWERING people - ambition, perseverance, and risk-taking rewarded while sloth, envy, and ignorance penalized.
Eradicating, NO. But greatly reducing it, YES. As they have done already in countries like Norway, Denmark, Germany, etc. by Taxing the Rich much more and providing much more Social services, to the point that they call themselves the "Welfare State".
And as to:
"concept of TAKING from one to give to another is morally bankrupt."
This is total insane talk. So are you saying that the Military, Police, Fire Dept. etc. are all result of "morally bankruptcy..." since they exist by
"TAKING from one to give to them..." since they are 100% Tax payer funded organizations.
And again in countries that have a much more generous Social services, that is what Republican lunatics refer to as:
"concept of TAKING from one to give to another.."
such as Norway, Denmark, Germany, etc. they have much more Happy and Successful societies, from having Much longer life Spans than US, etc.
The countries you have mentioned, Norway, Denmark and Germany have a couple of things in common: a) low unemployment rates; b) highly developed education and infrastructure; c) very productive labor
Countries with high tax rates, Argentina, France, Portugal, Spain .. not very good examples of happy, Utopian societies. So, your assertion of high tax = happy society is very weak at best.
Regarding military, police, fire -- infrastructure paid for ... not TAKEN and given
1st, no one said that they are:
only Republican lunatics and the rightwing Media that has made you into such lunatics says such a thing.
But that they have "much lower poverty" and misery" than USA.
2nd, Norway, Denmark and Germany, etc. EXACTLY have "ow unemployment rates" because they offer their People & businesses:
Free (Socialized) Health Care & College education for the Taxes that they pay.
A point I tried making above
Instead of focusing on tax collection, people should focus on how taxes are
Think about these facts ;
year 2000 .. total US gov. spending $1.5T
year 2012 .. $3.5T with deficit of $1.3T ... are you getting your money's worth?
And my main point through out has been about infrastructure and education development, most importantly, and what tax payers receive from their gov. versus what they pay.
1- our Taxes are wasted on One War after another War and a Gargantuan Military, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
2- Because we are NOT operating Health Care on Socialized basis we are spending $1-Trillion EXTRA on Health Care while 50-Mill Americans have NO Health Care. Here:
All because of lies & lies of Republican lunatics, FRAUD Obama Democrats & right-wing lying Media.
I think answer given by Thinkdeep does excellent job of answering this question once and for all. And as he noted you can see how clearly the answer this question is YES by how well countries with high Taxes on the Rich, such as Denmark, Norway, Germany, etc. are doing compared to USA.
Good. Go there and enjoy yourself. What are all of you, some kind of mutual admiration society? A clique of like minded high school buddies? There is no answer "once and for all," unless you won't listen to someone else' opinion. If so, go to hell. I don't need this stupid site with all of you childish little brats that aren't open to alternate views. Go back to your circle jerk, they're waiting for a pivot man.
"Yes by how well countries with high Taxes on the Rich, Denmark, Norway, German, are doing compared to USA"
Denmark -- 61% max individual tax rate
USA --55.9% (includes state, local as well as fed)
Norway -- 47.8%
German -- 45%
And what do tax payers in those countries receive relative to USA ...
Argument is flawed and should be that people need to receive MORE for their taxes to be happier.
1- Max Tax in US is at 39%
2- FICA Taxes in US are capped at about $120K per Year in income- This means that for example Blankfein of GoldMan Sachs paid FICA Taxes on 0.1% of his $40-Million income last year, while Middle class pays FICA Taxes on 100% of their income
1- The 39% is just federal, I reported 55.9% which includes state and local ... attention to detail is important when making judgments.
2- FICA is used to fund social security (- i.e. forced savings). In the near future, similar to other bankrupt social programs, benefits will be given on a means tested basis. So the sum total of dozens of Lloyd Blankfein types will not get a dime back. So middle class (at 100% as you say) loosely get their FICA Tax back.
Details, details ...
The 3 pts for what Germans, Danes, and Norwegians receive are far short of the full benefits they receive -- and strengthen my point concerning how much tax payers receive for their taxes may reflect their level of "happiness".
Just to throw it out there:
Instead of focusing on tax collections, people should focus first on how it is SPENT.
Think about these facts ;
year 2000 .. total US gov. spending $1.5T
year 2012 .. $3.5T with deficit of $1.3T ... are you getting your money's worth?
1st, Europeans have many other forms of Taxes too beside Federal Income Taxes! Such as a VAT Tax that in general is like 17% on top everything you buy. In fact Republicans & right-wing Media have referred to this VAT Tax as proof of how over Taxed Europeans are.
2nd, your 2nd point is another KEY point that we have been making, that is even though Middle class Americans pay Taxes on par with Europeans we are getting NOTHING for our Taxes but one War after another War after another War
That is while Europeans get Free Health Care and Free (or almost Free) College Education for their Taxes, Americans are NOT getting any of these and instead have to pay back breaking $20,000 per Year for health insurance (family of 4 including Deductibles & Co-pay), INSANE $100,000+ College tuition, etc. and again watch our Taxes wasted on one War after another War for Israel. And same Israelis also get Free Health Care for their Taxes. Here:
I think ThinkDeep, has answered this question well. I could not agree more with him. Or the fact could not agree more with him, that is in countries that Tax the Rich much more than in US and have much more generous Social services and in fact call themselves to be the "Welfare State", such as Denmark, Norway, etc. they have much lower rate of Poverty and much Higher rate of success on every metric of a Society. So the answer to your question is clearly YES, now if you are wondering how is it that so many People in USA believe in the exact opposite, is because the same Rich in USA have spent and are spending Trillions of Dollars via right-wing lying US Media they control to sell the American People such destructive non-sense as:
"Government is the Problem not the solution..."
The media is controlled by the left wing. Do you pay taxes? Do you own land? Do you support a family? I can't believe ANYONE with a family and mortgage would want their taxes raised. Don't you realize how high taxes are now? Look what we get,,,,half of Americans supported by the rest. Is that fair? Why should I. who struggled my entire life building a career and home for my family support a bunch of people who DON'T WANT TO WORK?
1st, US Media is a right-wing lying machine and MSNBC, so called Liberal Media, is best proof of what right-wing lying War-Mongering Machine entire Wall Street Media are: from Health Care to Iraq Genocidal Wars to Ukraine, to Gaza, to ISIS BS, etc., here;
2nd, Yes, I pay Taxes and I owe Home/Land. And Yes I support a family.
3rd, we are talking about having the Rich paying Higher Taxes as Middle classed in USA is already Taxed too much.
4th, we pay Taxes for the common good, and not what the Republican lunatics & right-wing Media behind them have brain washed you to say, that is:
"Why should I. who struggled my entire life building a career and home for my family support a bunch of people who DON'T WANT TO WORK"
5th, our Taxes is wasted on one Multi-Trillion War after another War after another War which Wars, which Wars along with the Gargantuan Military Obama-Bush War Mongers support
And having NO Shame or Limit on their SCAM and attack on US, same SOB right-wing War Mongering Cabal that is behind Obama-Bush War Mongers, then turns around and to further continue their Con Job on US will state that:
"We are broke" - by John Bohner the Speaker of the freaking House
"We have a $16-Trillion Debt & Deficit crisis"
“We are borrowing from our Grandchildren”
etc. Debt Fear-Mongering BS when it comes to spending on American People & Cities.
Or, you want Absolute and Irrefutable proof that MSNBC is part of the right-wing Lying Machinery of Wall Street Cabal?
Has MSNBC has not told the American People that all Conservative parties, repeat ALL the Conservative parties, in Europe, Canada, Australia, including Republicans beloved Israel, etc. are all 100% for their Government run Universal Socialized Health Care (NHS). And moreover tell American People WHY they are all 100% for their NHS.
3- And how the Wall Street Cabal that controls this MSNBC, as the rest of the right-wing lying Media in US, has conspired and amazingly is still conspiring in the Internet age to hide this fact, among many others, from American People!
And why are all Conservative parties, in Europe, Canada, Israel, Australia, Japan, etc. are 100% for their NHS?
Because NHS gives health care to all the People of their Country while cut, repeat cut, health care spending by 50%.
You know how TEAPublicans were (and are) running around claiming that we need to cut the Debt & Deficits, well Government run Universal Socialized Health Care would do that to the tune of $1-Trillion per Year, but it would make those cuts on the back of Wall Street, the 1%, for the benefit of the Main Street, the 99%.
Use real sources instead of your pal's blog. Denigrating the Tea Party illustrates your narrow minded attitude and inability to consider more than one explanation in any conversation. Your hyperbole is tiresome.
Here is Health Care spending and results for OECD Countries:
That chart alone, visually, will tell you the fact that USA is under attack by a true Parasitic Enemy within, since as you can see US results is EXACT UPSIDE DOWN of other countries! That is while US is spending a deficit BUSTING 18% of GDP on health care, it has WORST health care results of all OECD countries by a vast margin whom all have Government run Universal Socialized health care
1st, the answer to this question is Yes. And as the 100% proof look at countries like Norway, Denmark, Germany, etc. who have much higher Taxes on the Rich. They have much happier and healthier Societies with some of the lowest Poverty rates and, as a result they are some of the Happiest Countries with some of the lowest Unemployment rates.
OTOH, take USA that Taxes the Rich at some of the lowest rates in the World and as a result USA is one of the most miserable countries in the World, from having the Highest Murder rate per Capita among developed Countries, to Highest incarceration rates, to 2-Million Americans going bankrupt per Year due to Health Care costs, etc. indication of Misery and failure. To be exact in USA the Rich do not even pay the same Taxes in many cases as the Middle class, such as FICA Taxes where Middle class pays at 7.5% of their income while someone like Blankfein of GoldMan Sachs making $40-Million per Year pays FICA Taxes on 0.01% of his income! Think about that.
2nd, On top of above fats is what do you spend your Taxes on? That is you could raise Taxes but if it is wasted on one War after another War and a Gargantuan Military as is the case in USA then those raised Taxes of course will not go to reduce Taxes.
Oh you understand what I have written about quite clearly. It is just that whenever you right-wingers (aka Republicans in US) are presented with FACTS which FACTS show that your entire philosophy is either based on total lies or WORSE is a total SCAM by the Wall Street Rich on American people, then you either attack the persons English, Nick-name, or what have you but acknowledge the FACTS.
Free trade economics remain the major cause of our social economic crisis. The value of workers and labor has been degraded and deflated. This represents trillions of dollars in value lost forever. The same applies to the trade deficit which has broken records since 1994 and cost Americans more than 8 trillion dollars lost. President Obama had to bailed out the failed process and he bailed out the big money interests and investments while ignoring the suffering of all who lost everything due to free trade. The bail out represents a mortgage on the future. Tariffs may have been taken off products but now they are on workers.
Our largest employers are governments, federal, state and local. Next comes the medical industry and education. All need taxpayers support to survive. Who do you raise taxes on when the economy is based on government supported industry. See http://ray-tapajna-info.net/free-trade-economics
Wherever large companies take resources such as oil, natural gas, etc... those companies should be taxed at an extremely high rate and then that money specifically targeted to eradicate poverty. Giving huge tax breaks to these greed people just makes things worse for everybody else.
If you punish companies for doing well, they will leave. Taxing is punishment. So, you would punish people who start up a company and work hard to make it successful? Why do you think so many companies have been deserting the U.S.? Because we have the highest corporate taxes in the world. The whole idea of business is profit. If you can't make a profit here, you go somewhere you can. The tax code does need to change, but big corporations also give the most to CHARITY.
Only in the mind of the Republican lunatics and the right-wing lying Media that has made you lunatics possible is:
Taxing the Rich is the same as: "If you punish companies for doing well"
For if that was the case, we are all being "Punished for doing well" since we all pay Taxes.
2nd, you freaking Moron, in countries that have MUCH HIGHER Taxes than in US, and many Social services that USA still does not have, such as Germany, Denmark, Norway, Canada, etc.
Calling people names just shows how juvenile you are. When people like you don't have a real argument they call names. You won't admit if you are wrong so I really don't care. You won't even try to have a conversation, you have to be right and won't listen to anyone else. Are you even out of high school yet? You don't know what taxes are, do you? If you like those countries so much, LEAVE. Get the hell out of here, we don't and never will need people like you here.
"The United States has the highest corporate income tax rate among the 34 industrialized nations.
Among 163 countries worldwide, the United States has the third-highest top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1%, Tax-News.com reported. Only the United Arab Emirates with a 55% rate and Chad with 40% are higher corporate taxers."
"Tax-News reports that Europe has “the lowest average corporate tax rate by region at 1
"The United States has the highest corporate income tax rate among the 34 industrialized nations.
The United States has the third-highest top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1%, Tax-News.com reported. Only the United Arab Emirates with a 55% rate and Chad with 40% are higher.
"Tax-News reports that Europe has “the lowest average corporate tax rate by region at 18.6%."
1- "I don't have a real argument"! I have given you the list of countries that are much more successful that USA and all have much higher Taxes than the Rich, and you are so stupid to call that "No real argument"!
2- You should leave and go to those failed countries that do not Tax the Rich more and provide the Citizens with needed Social services, which is what you lunatics have turned USA into
Lets look at countries that have LOW Unemployment to effective FULL Employment. see what they are doing different:
Germany has un-employment rate of 5.4%, -
South Korea 3.7%
So what are they doing different compared to US?
1- They all have Government run Universal socialized health care, which means while all their people have health care they spend a small fraction of what US businesses and Government spend on health care
Raising taxes has never been used to alleviate poverty. Taxes are for infrastructure. The only way to alleviate poverty is to provide opportunity(s) for advancement vertically. Taking money from those who have earned it to give to those who haven't earned it is wrong and leads to conflict. It never fails that governments pull this trick on the people. Sounds good, but it rarely benefits anyone but the government.