Location: United States Points: 171 |
Posted On: 2018-07-12 09:44:06
“One Nation Under GOD” what does it mean to you?
For sure, the majority of Americans believe in GOD to some degree. Republicans, Democrats and Independents, in all political denominations there are Americans who believe that it was through the power of GOD that America exists, and it is GOD who powers its future. When it comes to politics, no political party feels more emboldened to carry the religious banner than Republicans do, and now being more aligned with Evangelicals, there is no deed a bridge too far to prove they are GOD'S political messenger. I'm not a Republican, but I do believe in GOD.. and though not a Christian.. I do believe in the Christian concept of religion and in my Lord Jesus Christ whose blood sacrifice made it possible for me to exist, and to expound upon these things.. today!
It's been said that religion and politics don't mix.. of course, that's unless you happen to be a Republican/conservative.. then all bets are off. If you are Republican, please tell me why you feel your political approach to solving our many problems is right and everyone else is wrong? What does "One Nation Under GOD" mean to you?
OK Cal … 1st, true followers of Christ (Christians lit.= little Christ’s). Christ set the ‘red-line’ between politics/government & God/religion. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Mt. 22:21. The perspective that Republicans are synonymous with Evangelicals is an erroneous claim ‘progressives’ on the left like to use to validate accusations of bigotry by Republican/Conservatives/Evangelicals, a prime example of hypocrisy - insinuating that ONLY they are right or fair! The many Republicans that do bring their religious convictions into their personal circles of influence merely indicate that they live their faith openly. Of course, not ALL Republicans are such believers.
Hello MJ, it's been some time. I understand somewhat of what you have intimated, but tell me so that I may better understand, for example “If we are rendering under Caesar what is Caesar's, how then can Evangelicals and some other Christian groups go against Roe v Wade?” As it is right now, today, Roe v Wade is etched in Constitutional Law. As I have tried to explain before, I do not, personally, approve of abortion. But I accept the woman's “free will” privilege of choice.
In terms of “rendering to GOD what is due Him,” as for another example, when considering that which is etched in Constitutional Law, thus it reflects in significance of Paul's admonition thereat Romans 13, “subjecting ourselves to [superior] authorities” which Roe v Wade as a Constitutional Law being an action [superior] in Caesar's authority? That being said, would you then say that if one believes abortion is murder, going against Roe v Wade does not mean
one is taking “a stand against GOD” by going against [superior] Constitutional Law? Now, with regards to Evangelicals and the Republican Party, you have to break them down by percentage based on religious denominations! https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/23/u-s-religious-groups-and-their-political- leanings/
Decisions by gov. legislation must be properly respected as “under Caesar what is Caesar's”. Respect however, does NOT mean agreement or endorsement. Every individual believes THEIR personal religion or ideology is true, thereby indicating opposing/conflicting tenants are wrong or false. Interestingly, Roman crucifixion was the legal means of Capital Punishment. I doubt Christ agreed with such cruelty, but submitted to it, rendering unto Caesar while maintaining an alternative conviction.
Many socially acceptable life-styles, customs, ‘rights’ are now legal, but NOT endorsed by Scripture. I can co-exist peacefully with people who do things I do NOT. Live & let live. But when asked, I am “always ready to give a defense to everyone who asks a reason for the hope that is in me” 1Pt. 3:5.
Thanks, MJ! But would you not agree that Jesus' submission to that particular law of Rome, was greatly different when you consider what He died for? I guess what I'm saying is, if Jesus had not submitted, wouldn't that have changed how Scriptures were written and the necessary "Blood Sacrifice?" It appears to me that either Jesus had no choice but to submit, or the choice of compliance laid strictly with Jesus. If the latter, then how could such have been pre-ordained? Please reply!
If the choice of compliance laid strictly with Jesus, then how could such have been pre-ordained? Scripture indicates indeed the choice was Christ’s. He volunteered, “I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me” –Jn. 6:38. B4 surrendering He prayed, “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done” – Lk. 22:42.
God pre-ordained, by His unique ability, knowing past/present/future. The mystery of the relationship between the Father & Son & Holy Spirit when thoroughly researched reveals an additionally unique humanity of Christ, the perfect God/Man. It is an enigma many are innocently naïve to or willfully reject. In Christ’s human nature, He exercised His free will, consistent with the pre-ordained result.
I hear you MJ, but it is still quite confusing. You mention GOD'S "unique ability, knowing past/future." What you're saying, for example, GOD sees me and what I will do tomorrow - today! That being true, GOD sending Jesus would not have been Jesus' test, but a test for us since GOD had already seen that Jesus, His Son, would not (could not) have failed. In that case, what was the 'true' sacrifice since Jesus' failing was never in question? GOD already Knew He would succeed!
2 points – “that Jesus would not (COULD NOT) have failed” contradicts Scripture. The temptations Christ endured imply that He COULD have failed, but CHOSE NOT to (Mt. 4:1; Mk. 1:13; Lk.4:2). Jesus (the man) “was in ALL points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” – Heb.4:15. Consideration of the dual nature of Christ (God in the flesh Jn. 1:14) is essential to proper comprehension of His exercise of free will.
Although in God’s Omniscient mind, from His UNIUGE perspective, there NEVER is a question or doubt of outcome. Predestination has ALREADY included the end from the beginning. A human perspective in our natural realm, is incapable of such reliable forecast. Thus God has ‘previewed’ what He deems necessary for man through prophesy, so when fulfilled, it may be recognized as God ordained.
In this natural realm God has revealed much to CERTAIN persons (Spirit filled believers) that they might know. God ALREADY KNOWS ALL. But some revelation He shares so we may KNOW. “It has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God” – Lk. 8:10.
“When He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into ALL truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you THINGS TO COME” – Jn. 16:13. “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His” – Ro. 8:9.
As Christ’s Resurrection PROVED His power over death, the indwelling presence of Spirit proves to each individual believer that they have indeed been born again. This PERSONAL abiding experience is a perpetual reality, assuring the fulfillment of Christ’s promise to EACH true believer. Others may not receive such assurance & confirmation – so they do not KNOW – left to merely wonder.
This is why Christ declared ““Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Jn. 3:3. Some imagine becoming born again is relegated to an after-life resurrection. But the accommodating KNOWLEDGE & ASSURANCE resulting from the personal experience is intended for THIS NATURAL REALM. In the NEXT LIFE we will already have been perfected & know all.
When born again, the presence of the Holy Spirit is a personal reality & perpetual assurance of eternal life. Since it is initiated & sustained by God, trust in HIS ability & promise becomes innate. A new spiritual life indeed “preparation for the 'final' resurrection” – when the natural physical body shall be raised to eternal incorruption. The life now lived in the Spirit is a ‘down payment’ of this inheritance.
“Having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory” – Eph. 1:13, 14. “There is therefore now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who live NOT according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us FREE
from the law of sin & death. What the law could NOT do because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the
flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. The carnal mind is enmity against God because it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed CAN BE. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you” Ro. 1: 1-9.
There is a God responsible for creating everything in mankind. US of A trusts this God but firstly in the form of a human Son that is a mediator between God and humans. As humans evolve so does the Son and now the Son doesn't need his human form to relate to humans. He does not demand a religion but supports us in whatever politics, science and corporation we lay our energy in.
“One Nation Under GOD” has been used as a rouge by Republicans and right-wingers to brain wash the low IQ Americans into giving up their Freedom and Riches for the benefit of Wall Street Kabal behind such odious person as Trump. Millions are demonstrating against Hate monger in Chief Trump, as you can see here:
Exactly Man. Republican Trump traitors “One Nation Under GOD” and oh they ares so Patriotic and Oh so the Love the Flag and Military as one SCAM after another on American People to hide their real agenda, which is to rape and pillage American people for the benefit of their Wall Street Bosses and other EVIL reasons. After all who but a True traitor would be NOT for Universal socialized health that all developed Nations have, including Israel the beloved Nation of Trump Republican and right-wing Media, and as result KILL 100,000+ Americans per Year dither due to NO
Healthcare, or American Woman forced to have Abortion since giving Birth in USA costs typical Woman $30,000+ just for giving birth, or mass Suicides in USA since People cannot get the Mental Health care that they need, or 50,000+ killer per Year due to Opioid crisis since countless Americans cannot afford to get proper Medical care, etc. etc. wrong upon American People that Republicans and right-wing media have brought upon USA just due to their opposition to socialized health.
“One Nation Under GOD”, of course it depends whose GOD you are referring to?
And what if People are Atheist or Agnostic?
So I think the founding fathers had it right in this regard to insist that there be a total seperation of Church and State. Because as per example of Republicans hijacking the GOD flag to screw American People out of XYZ, “One Nation Under GOD” is a recipe for disaster when and if those ruling Elites who control the Media decide to do so. As per example of Hate Mongering Donald Trump and his low IQ Bible thumbing inbreds.
Trump Republicans are the SPAWN of Satan, and one way they been hiding this horrible fact is to be Oh so more Christian and pro-GOD. And this fact was proven again today by Trump standing next to Theresa May the Conservative Party Prime Minister of UK, because while Trump was showering May with praise, he and the members of the FAKE News ignored the facts that this Theresa May and Conservative Party of UK are:
1- 100% for their Government run Universal Socialized Healthcare (NHS)
2- 100% for their Strict Gun bans as result of which they have has ZERO mass shootings in 20 Years
Both of which Trump Republicans call: "Socialism" and "Communism" and oppose as result:
1- 50,000+ Americans are KILLED per Year due to NO Healthcare, since we lack NHS
2- 50,000+ American Woman chose Abortions per Year since giving birth costs an insane $30,000+
3- 30,000 Americans are killed per year due to our insane Gun laws
You have nailed it. Indeed the Party that is responsible for killing 100,000+ Americans per Years, form state of Healthcare to state of Gun laws that they spouse, while they have the gaul to say that they are "Pro Life" and want Abortion banned, which Abortion they are 90% responsible for, this Party this Republican party is indeed SPAWN of Satan.
You know what is amazing is, what is telling about what a FAKE News we have, all those Reporters today with Trump May did not ask Trump or May about Horrific state of Healthcare or Guns in USA!
I mean not one of them turn to May and say Mrs May:
You 100% support your NHS and your Strict Gun bans in UK.
What Trump Republicans call "Socialism" and "Communism", so Mrs May are your a "Socialist" and "Communist" or the guy standing next to you an utter lunatic?
Yes, they did not ask May or Trump about Horrific state of Healthcare or Guns in USA, because so busy asking about NATO NATO NATO. And here is where it got even crazier, even though Trump said he has "increased US contribution to NATO...", he has not called for moving even 1 US troop out of NATO back into USA, MSNBC the right-wing Media masquerading as Liberal Media, aka FAKE News, reported it as "Trump is threatening NATO alliance", when of course he has done no such a thing. Amazing
real-pat How is it you can continue to label tens of thousands of Evangelicals who happen to support Trump "SPAWN of Satan" when you have zero theological credential to back your ridicule? I know you think you're helping to promote a call to universal health care for USA, but you should learn that your point is always missed by those who are merely insulted by your lack of respect for the opposition. A winning strategy in every battle is - keep your friends close & your enemies even closer!
MJ, who but the SPAWN of Satan would have the Policy positions that Republicans Trump have? And best proof of this was again yesterday when Trump was standing next to Theresa May, the Conservative Party Prime Minister of UK, and showering her with praise as Reagan did with Margarete Thatcher and this Conservative Party in UK is 100% for their Universal Socialized Healthcare (NHS), 100% for their strict Gun bans; which policies Republicans such as Trump call "Socialism" and "Communism"
And lets state ALL Conservative parties in Europe, Canada, Australia, Israel, etc. are also 100% for these same policies.
So either ALL Conservative parties in Europe, Canada, Australia, Israel, etc. are "Socialists or Communists" or Republicans in US are complete lunatics, or WORSE the SPAWN of Satan for fully knowing that these policies that Conservative parties in Europe, Canada, Australia, Israel, etc. 100% support are right yet opposing these for American people as a result of which
1- 50,000+ Americans are KILLED per Year due to NO Healthcare, since we lack NHS
2- 50,000+ American Woman chose Abortions per Year since giving birth costs an insane $30,000+
3- 30,000 Americans are killed per year due to our insane Gun laws
So who but the SPAWN of Satan would have such destructive polices against the People of her own Country where Trump Republicans as per their love of UK, Israel, etc. know what they are doing is EVIL?
real pat - Disagreement does not equate to spiritual affiliation you claim "SPAWN of SATAN". I am a fully credentialed theologian with 40+ years of professional experience. I am NOT a "lunatic" & resent the implication that any opposition to your ideas is proof of it. Respect is a 2-way honor. In order to receive it, it must be given. If you really care about universal health care becoming a reality in the USA, then you would be more respectful of opponents in a fruitful attempt to influence
them to accept your position & join you in implementing it. Instead, you constantly rant against & revile every seeming opponent, making sweeping generalizations, as if your comparisons are valid proof. When you use terms like 'liberal' / 'conservative', 'right' / 'left', they are often misapplied to certain topics, people, ideologies, etc. If you really want your points considered seriously, STOP the name calling & immature labeling of presumed opponents & begin a civil debate in respect.
MJThompson thanks for your words full of christian wisdom. Just because President Trump is totally different from all other American Presidents does not make him a bad person neither makes us who believe in him a "Spawn of Satan". Hate brings hate. Yeshua / Jesus our Messiah never told us to hate anyone. He even said if we did so we'll be guilty of murder.
Yes I live like anybody else. Work 6 days a week, like the bible says. Have a house, a business, and a religious ministry.
Through my business I buy healthcare. I do not use a gun, but let others have their right to one. I understand the frustration of many Americans, of the difficult times we live in. But Trump is not the cause of those problems. Some of those problems come from long ago. In the last 10 years we have had to many people died of gun violence, because we have been to soft on crime. Schools should have private guards making sure schools do not let guns in. Every employer should make an effort,
like I do with my employees to give them health insurance. It is a right every person who works deserve. Government should not be our "Daddy". American man and woman should be responsible of controlling their sexual needs and make sure to bring only the kids they can afford. In our Congregation we help people who need food, health service, rent or other necesities. Thata is why we are followers of Christ. Hate will not make us better. Love will always makes us strong. Blessings to all.
Greetings, YosefMarques.. and Peace to you and yours! Originally, I had planned to take a step back from engaging in these types of political conversation. Unfortunately, on this one I could not. In your response to a particular post submitted by MJThompson, you stated: “Just because President Trump is totally different from all other American Presidents does not make him a bad person neither makes us who believe in him a "Spawn of Satan".”
I must say from that statement you sound almost like the POTUS, referring to racists and the protesters against them in Charlottesville, Va, when he said “there were good people on both sides.” It's true, Trump isn't like any other president I have ever seen and heard. In that respect, he is truly unique unto himself! But I don't confuse his uniqueness with my perceiving him to be a bad person.. because it is not his uniqueness as a president that makes him a bad person to me, but what
Cont'd>> he says and does. You're right when you say “Hate brings hate” and that “Hate will not make us better.” Believe me, no one may understand that more than me. But I believe that you're wrong when you say “Government should not be our 'Daddy' because to me the aspect of government involvement means more than just women having babies, and Americans having healthcare. Isn't it logical that government should play “Daddy” than to have people take matters into their
Cont'd>> own hands. I mean, how small do you think government is when they determine if or if NOT a woman can have an abortion, or if a 45 or 50 year old person, who had worked and paid taxes, but now receives assistance, should be sacrificed with those who selfishly work the system. I don't believe government should necessarily be smaller as much as I believe it just has to be smarter.
Cal, I agree, "government should [not] necessarily be smaller as much as I believe it just has to be smarter. Whether or not any POTUS is 'good' or 'bad' is a judgment reserved for God. Scripture says "all have sinned". It is a ploy of the devil to trap us in 'self-righteous' behavior judging one better than another. Such judgments are based in hate, the fruit of which is obvious; prejudice, bigotry, & presumed superiority. When we detect those fruits by a person's actions, we must refrain
from jumping to rash judgments that tend to cancel any future hope of restoration. Too many see a fault & then resort to compartmentalizing the individual as "bad", when the fact is that their actions were bad. When we consider politics, bad choices, comments, & criticisms are made regularly on BOTH sides. What I think our position as believers should be is to follow a spiritual perspective. That view should be fixed on the long-term, always allowing for grace to finish its perfect work.
Our penal system is by design promoting such civility towards even the most heinous criminal. Life sentences may be shortened, granting time off for good behavior. Only a truly bad person is beyond redemption. To infer that any POTUS is a bad person, when merely some of their actions are bad, is unfair, unpatriotic, & a judgment that is reserved for God. Lets remember: "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged" - Mt. 7:2. Criticize, complain, protest - but do not judge or hate.
Well said, Mark! Which is one of the reasons why I would get so upset when this practicality wasn't afforded to Obama. I never met Trump personally as I did Obama, and I never felt Obama to be a bad person even knowing he had bad in him. I judged Obama before meeting him here in Philly by how he spoke and acted on screen.In person he did nothing to change my opinion. With Trump, I also judge him by how he speaks and acts on screen. Because of it, I allowed myself to grow to loathe him, instead
Cont'd>> of feeling sorry for him. For that there exists great regret. I still believe he is not a good POTUS, but stepping back and looking from afar, prayer it seems is more fitting than loathing. And that's the truth!
Cal, I agree & hope we all focus more on ALL issues through a godly 'prayer filter'. As for "this practicality wasn't afforded to Obama" - I don't remember the level of insult or hostility toward him as is presently levied against Trump. I can only speak sincerely of myself. I never proclaimed bad sentiment RE: Obama, or any other POTUS (Dem or Rep)! We can definitely disagree w/some points or actions (w/ anyone) without animus & vitriol. In deed, Trump is NOT presidential compared to past
POTUS, His unique style i quite polarizing, which immediately causes a massive love/hate reaction. When he says he's for America, he automatically offends those who do not believe him. When those same people fail to consider what he has actually done rather than focusing on merely what he says, their resistance is understandable. When 90% of reported news focuses on his faults while only reporting 10% of his positive achievements, then of course, they will think less of him. Meanwhile,
those who see the positive progress & his record of fulfilled promises made while running for office, are more forgiving of his obvious faults. No one is perfect, POTUS will ALWAYS be a sinful human being whoever it is! Instead of naming names of individuals who are guilty of misconduct & in some cases even crimes, many Americans see the system itself as corrupt, with suspicious players on BOTH sides. This was what "clean the swamp' was initiated to resolve. Career politicians on BOTH sides
have resisted the 'non-member' new POTUS because he is a threat to their re-election. Some Americans are so tired of the way things operate in government that they accepted Trumps challenge, "what have you got to lose?" & backed his unconventional 'storm-trooper' antics. Obama was also unique (compared to past POTUS). He did things in a way unique to his style for 8 years. Because his ideas were new, he was given support to hopefully achieve them with minimal criticism from opponents. Today,
opponents of Trump's 'new ideas' are proclaimed as 'treasonous', 'unpatriotic', worthy of 'impeachment' - NONE of which any facts prove. That is animus & vitriol, the likes of which was never CONSTANTLY levied against Obama at such levels as exist now. But that's my personal observation, gathered from research of multiple sources on BOTH sides & by contrasting it with my theological experience. May we agree on the good, remembering our national motto - together we stand, divided we fall.
Thanks, Mark.. I will surely try, despite the difficulty. And you're right.. (somewhat) that Obama was never attacked in the manner in which Trump is attacked.. for sure.. not at this level! And I could go into my own personal observation of how Republicans treated Obama but I'm not, because it will only solicit more debate over matters of the past that cannot be changed. I can see how the POTUS' approach may seem as merely a unique style to some, but to me it's like looking into the mirror
Cont'd>> of the 60's, a place I desire not to return. Instead, as I continue to take a step back, I'm going to take your advice. There's many things I disagree with about Trump, and few things I believe he has accomplished for the whole of America – but your advice is sound – it's better to stand together than to divide ourselves and be destroyed. Thanks Mark.. and Peace to you and yours!
Cal, To say I appreciate your reply, is an immense understatement. I so much prefer celebrating our common interests, than squabbling over disagreements. Thank you for your personal acquiescence of our continued mutually beneficial cyber-relationship. Peace!
"One nation under God" was a slogan that the United States adopted long ago, when almost everyone believe in the God of the Bible and went to church every sunday. Today America (USA) has change many people do not believe in the God of the Bible, a big chunk of people declare themselves atheists, and many people has seen a Bible, but NEVER read it or touch it because its to "holy". Politics in both sides just use "religion" as they need it. It does not mean anything for almost all our politicians. There are some in politics thata read the book and follow the guidelines of a "christian life", but just some. I am a Republican/conservative, never a liberal.
As a Republican/conservative I deal with life through a Bible view. There are not gray areas in between. Example: President Trump (not a perfect "christian"), is not a diplomat, but tells people what he thinks. Like with the Nato question: Why don't these countries pay the fare share NOW?. I do it in my life, why dont they? Blessings
There are several, equally reasonable ways to acknowledge the phrase “One Nation Under God”. 1st) the official slogan of the USA, from the two-cent piece in 1864 to a Joint Resolution by the 1957 84th Congress declaring "In God We Trust" must appear on American paper currency. 2nd) the same Congress added the phrase “under God” to the pledge of allegiance. 3rd) “one nation” indicates there are many other nations, but this one acknowledges it as being under GOD. This does NOT declare it to be THE ONLY nation, as technically ALL nations are under GOD. 4th) “under” indicates submission to a higher authority, in this case GOD. Recent movements to remove these from public, government, & political arenas require legislation by Congress, since it originally became law there.
Debate about any influence the phrase generates is of course, permitted as free speech, but to impugn the sincerity of ANYONE who advocates ANY direction, policy, or mandate as within the parameters of our nation being under God is a judgment I dare NOT make. Those who believe in the sovereignty of God as Creator certainly cannot dismiss that this whole planet & ALL life on it are under God. If you believe we ALL shall one day give an account to God of our actions & alliances - BEWARE!
Thanks Mark.. your reply was very insightful and helpful. A problem has come up and I feel I must step away for awhile. Once my head is back on straight, you can expect that I'll be back to my old posting self once again. You were right.. there's always a more civil way to communicate. Stay frosty.. Peace!
Well I happen to believe in The Christian God but He does not force others to believe in Him. So I also believe that God should mean what ever a person chooses it to be even if that god is nothing more then the physics of nature.
sherry40, I appreciate what you say.. and while I, too, understand that GOD doesn't force us to believe in Him.. scriptures, however, proves that our belief and worship of Him must be, therefore, in accordance with scriptures, if it is the GOD of the Bible we believe in. But my question is based more on our nation as a whole, and what the phrase "One Nation Under GOD" actually means to you?